'Israelis appreciate PM Modi's stance of refraining from calling for a ceasefire with Hamas'

New Delhi: Noah Slepkov, a Jewish People Policy Institute Fellow, says the end game for Israel in Gaza is to wipe out Hamas and ensure that October 7 is never repeated. He accused Hamas of starting a war with war crimes and using civilians as human shields to save its military apparatus.  

In an interview with Tarun Upadhyay for the YouTube channel 'Uncensored', he spoke at length about concerns and challenges Israel is facing.  

Here are the excerpts:

How has the Hamas attack changed Israel’s psyche?

It will take a long time for us (Israelis) to reflect and analyse how this - October 7 attack- has changed Israeli society as the shock itself is so overwhelming. Right now, society is mobilised for war, so we don’t have time to reflect on it. 

What happened on October 7 when 1400 Israelis died in a Hamas attack coupled with 2000 rockets fired at Israel was a declaration of war by Hamas. There is no one in Israel who wasn't affected. 

About 3 lakh reservists have been called in, which is a huge number. Just before this attack, society was divided over judicial reforms by the Netanyahu government but now Israelis are united. Slogans like “Together we will be victorious” are written all over Israel. We are united in winning to ensure it (attack) doesn’t happen again.

Is it an existential fight for Israel?  

It’s not just an existential fight but I would go a step beyond that as this is an intractable conflict. Israelis want to live in their state and enjoy the freedom, and democracy that the state has provided them for the last 75 years. And Hamas doesn’t want Israel to exist. It (Hamas) thinks great injustice was done to Palestinians in 1948 and wants to eliminate Israel. 

You see people chanting “from river to sea”- Jordan river to Mediterranean Sea- Palestine will be free, meaning there won’t be a Jewish state. So, if we look at what this war is about - it’s about what we want to exist, and they don’t want this. 

Hamas didn’t carry this attack to destroy Israel but to get some bargaining chip, to get some sense of victory. Now the people in Israel have realised they had a false sense of security, that they could enjoy music festivals close to the Gaza border and nothing bad could happen. That notion was an illusion. Now, we are saying we are not safe anymore. Our focus is to ensure Israel is a safe place and it doesn’t happen again. 

Does Israel face threats at its northern borders too? 

Yes, there is a threat from the north too. Hezbollah, which has the same aspirations as Hamas, also a proxy of Iran, wants to take advantage of the situation. Our worry is what happened along the Gaza border could easily happen in the north too. We must ensure that no Israeli comes under any harm, so they have been evacuated from areas close to the border. Every day rockets are being fired and there is fighting between Hezbollah militia and the IDF. 

This scenario is a “game changer”, no one thought there would be war with Hamas and a little bit of Hezbollah at the other end. So, this is an existential war as clearly if we don’t win, this massacre could happen again. 

This could be motivation and capability for them -the militia- to do it again. If Hezbollah showed up with one lakh people at the border, there is little Israel could do with it. What happened in Gaza with 2000 people -Hamas terrorists- was quite serious. Nobody feels they could be defeated by Hezbollah and Hamas, but their goal is to defeat us.

In retaliation by Israel about 10,000 Gazans have been killed, is this response valid?

First of all, let me say that Israeli people appreciate Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi's stance of refraining from calling for a ceasefire with Hamas. There is no way for Israel to fight conventional fights where soldiers die, and civilians are unharmed. 

Soon after Hamas deliberately killed civilians, including decapitating babies, Israel is doing to eliminate this threat –Hamas- and then there is an outrage that the innocent people are dying. Of course, the loss of life of innocent civilians is regrettable, no one wants to see it except for Hamas. But you must ask who is responsible for these killings?

Hamas is preventing people from being evacuated. They are using ambulances for military purposes. They have total disregard for any notion of war crimes. Usually, war crimes are committed in exhaustion sets in the fighting army and generals feel doing something extreme will bring quick victory. Hamas started this war with war crimes. I don’t think in the history of war - before the rise of terrorism - any army started like this. 

Are you concerned about the rising figures of casualties in Gaza? 

Hamas has total disregard for the death of civilians in Israel and I would argue even in Gaza too. Hamas is holding hostages and Israel is saying if you want a ceasefire then release them first. Hamas says no we can’t do that. Israel drops leaflets telling people to leave certain areas that are military targets, but Hamas is stopping them. Everyone has a notion of a human shield, but Hamas built their military apparatus underneath these hospitals.

You can’t say Israel won’t hit these targets but there would be civilians who would die. The onus is on Hamas that it doesn’t put civilians in the line of fire and doesn't use them as human shields. Since Hamas doesn’t have the normal ability to fight with Israel in an “honorable” way they are using civilians as a way of protecting them.

It seems Hamas won’t care if half of the population of Gaza is killed if they achieve their military objective. Saving human lives is not the priority of Hamas. In Israel, Hamas’s terrorists, who entered our country to butcher people, are being treated in our hospitals. So, it reflects which side is concerned about saving lives. 

How serious is the threat from Hezbollah?

Threat from Hezbollah is plausible. Why else has Iran been arming it for all these years? It was designed to fight Israel. The firepower of Hezbollah is on a different level, it has 2 lakh rockets in its arsenal, so it’s the real threat. Israel hopes eventually before a major conflict with Hezbollah there will be some event that could change the axis of power- something like the Arab Spring. That was unforeseen but changed the dynamics of the region.

With Israel making peace with many countries in the Middle East and before this massacre, talks were going on with Saudi Arabia. So, eventually, you have a situation where Lebanese people will realise that instead of destroying Israel, they say why don’t we build up our own country? 

Hamas instead of making Gaza a great place where everyone is safe and has jobs insists let’s first destroy Israel and take it over. Hopefully, before any full-scale war, there will be a major cataclysmic event that will uproot Hezbollah. But unless that happens, Israel will build up its deterrence and tell Hezbollah if you don’t cross our red lines we won’t get into any direct confrontation. 

What do you make of Hezbollah chief Hassan Nasrallah’s statement?

Nasrallah’s speech was like much ado about nothing and pathetic. He didn’t say much but just rambled and reminded me of Donald Trump (former US president). Basically, he was saying it’s a Palestinian thing, we had nothing to do with it, Zionists are afraid of us as we (Hezbollah) are so strong. But ultimately, he didn’t declare war and wanted to maintain the status quo. If that can be maintained, it would be great. Right now, our focus is on Hamas. We also want that and first want to finish Hamas. We don’t want to get into a rabbit hole of conflict.

With the rising death toll in Gaza, there is fear that Israel could face real problems with Muslim nations, especially in the Middle East. What do you say about it? 

People shouldn’t think about Palestinian people as children. They have a choice between war and peace. War looks like this. Hamas wants to destroy Israel and we are stopping them from doing so. Palestinians need to say we are content, we are going to build a life in this land -Gaza- and we are not going to fight for the homes of our great-great-grandfathers. These are refugees from 1948. How many people in Gaza were alive when the 1948 war happened? The Arab world should be asking Hamas - What is the end game here?

Every time you start a war with Israel, you are sent back two decades in the past and you don’t achieve anything. Killing 1400 Israelis didn’t achieve anything for ordinary Gazans. The Arab world should tell them to get a programme and stop fighting a war which is 75 years old. It takes two to tango. Hamas won’t give up ever as it is a religious fanatic outfit and it’s a religious war for them. But ordinary Palestinians should be asking why we are fighting it.

What is the end and exit game of Israel?

I would like to see an end game in which Palestinians say they want peace and no more war with Israel. End of conflict and claims. That’s probably not going to happen because the international community doesn’t have the stomach to wait for that to happen. The end game is Israel going to eliminate the military threat of Hamas.

Once Hamas is gone from power, another entity such as the Palestinian Authority (PA) will be responsible for governing Gaza and hopefully, the international community will also be involved.

There will be a mechanism to ensure what goes into Gaza is used for the good of the people. Since Hamas came to power in Gaza, it’s facing blockade simply to ensure it doesn’t get weaponised.

Though it didn’t work great, it worked better than just open borders and arms going in freely. So, the end game would be that Hamas as an entity wouldn’t be in power but some other entity which has better relations with Israel.